One more Ide for the road

[dhampyresa]

Okay, this is going to be my last Ides of March themed post for this year, I swear.

So! Rome thoughts, yes? This is going to be a bit disjointed, because I last saw these episodes lo these mumble-mumble weeks ago and am working on memory only, but here goes.

I don't like their Caesar. My feelings about Caesar outside if Astérix are pretty much unformly negative (RUINING IT FOR THE REST OF US, etc) nad even then only because Astérix is hilarious and he tends to lose. My favourite Astérix!Caesar is actually probably the one from the animated Cleopatra movie or possibly the live-action Cleopatra movie? Or maybe the comics. Anyway, that's some top-notch Caesar-ing. Rome? Yeah, not so much. I just didn't bond with the character on any level beyond "HAHAHA YOU GON GET STABBED".

Also, dear show, it's not that I was expecting you to throw Caesar and Mark Anthony in bed together (speaking of which, I'm about 90% sure that the dude who got me the episodes ships it), but really you couldn't throw in any reference to Caesar being bisexual? Like, hello, queer people, we exist and we would like some representation, please. I guess there's Octavia/Servilia, but come on, show, the historically queer dude is right there.

Octavian is so young, OMG. SO TINY. But it is also SO CONFUSING that he's Octavian, because I keep thinking he's Alix. Pitch-perfect Alix casting, seriously. Like, the first time he showed up on screen I thought "hey, no one told me Alix was going to be in this" then "wait, Alix is fictional. guess they got the rights, though". This is funny if you know who Alix is, btw. (The rest of this review will be a lot less bande dessinée-centric, btw, you can breathe a sigh of relief.)

I was really liking their Octavian, but then the thing with Octavia happened and so I was out of ther on the first train to Nopeville. I still find him a very compelling character and one I like to watch, but not necessarily one I like.

I've no real feelings on their Mark Anthony. He... Mark Anthonys, I guess. I like the Mark Anthony from Horrible Histories better, but like above with Caeasar and Astérix, it's probbaly just that Horrible Histories is funny.

In fairness to Mark Anthony's actor, I'm fairly sure he's the only male character to get a full frontal nudity scene, so props to you, dude. Props to you.

I really liked Octavia and I thought her romance with Servilia was rather sweet, but then the thing happened and like with Octavian, Nopetrain to Nopeville. I can't even be bothered to have any feelings for Attia that isn't complete apathy or mild dislike/occasional outright hatred (she hits her kids! and is generally pretty abusive, especially towards Octavia).

I thought Servilia was a fascinating character. I really love her whole arc. A++ would watch again Her relationship with Brutus was also super interesting and very believable.

Speaking of Brutus! His character arc is great and I have this whole thing about duty vs friendship and yeah. That was very enjoyable.

And okay, am I supposed to be shipping Brutus and Cicero? Because I am. There are at least two places where they have a dialog like

Cicero: I shall do This Thing.
Brutus: I'll do That Instead.
Cicero: I shall do That Instead as well.

It's pretty funny. I really like their interaction in general.

A good point for the show: it did manage to make me care about one of the Catos, which is no small feat because ALL THE CATOS ARE TERRIBLE. Then again, in Republic vs Empire, I will always side with the Republic. So you can pretty much imagine that I'm making a frowny face at the screen roughly 50% of the time while I'm watching.

NO. NO MORE EMPIRE FOR YOU PEOPLE. YOU'RE ALL FIRED. >:(

As far as people who were made up for the show (iirc) go, I really like Niobe! She's pretty great and she's so resilient. She's made the ebst of so many bad situations and she's had to adapt to so many things and she's still so kind and I love it. (Guess how much I enjoyed the end of the season on her side of things? NOT MUCH.)

Eirene is totally the best! I like that she doesn't trust Pullo right away and that she manages to build a life for herself with the Vorenus family. Not sure how I feel about her reconciliation with Pullo.

Posca's pretty neat too and doesn't put up with any of Caesar's bullshit, so good for him! I hops he's still around in season 2.

I like Vorenus and Pullo okay. My favourite moment with both of them is either the conversation about gods in Egypt or this bit, which showcases both their characters perfectly:




Vorenus is so grumpy, it's hilarious. (Except when he goes all murder happy on people I like.) Or, you know, like Atia says: "The sullen Catonian one [and] the cheerful, brutish one".

I think my favourite scene just might be the scene where Brutus and co pull a Gretchen-from-Mean-Girls and decide they should totally just stab Caesar,



if only for the phrase "This is not some cheap murder!" I mean, the rest of Brutus' speech ("It is an honorable thing we do. It must be done honorably, in daylight, on the Senate floor, with our own hand... with my hand.") is also great, but that one sentence is particularly great.

I regret that the passage of time wasn't established more clearly. The first season takes place over six or so years, but it's really not all that clear. I based myself on the length of Vercingetorix's emprisonment to get this figure. There's a newsreader/town crier that shows up regularly, they could have had him give the year Ab Urbe Condita.

Overall, I found this series very compelling and enjoyed it. I'll definitely be watching the second season.

Oh, and I first got the idea to watch this from a woman giving a conference at the Louvre on Ancient History (different area of study, though) and praising its historical accuracy so ther eyou go.

Comments

[ljwrites]

That sounds like a multilayered show with interesting characters, I'm adding it to my list of "shows I would consider watching." Also kudos for the reference to Mean Girls, that's not something I expected to pop up in connection to Rome.

I remember reading the Korean translation of the Asterix book with Cleopatra in it. I found Caesar pretty damned hilarious in it, too.

i have yet to hear an argument for loving Caesar that I don't find disturbing. Recently I listened to an audio lecture about books that have made history, and at one point the lecturer Rufus J. Fears let 'er rip with the Caesar fanboying. He was like, oh, Caesar created a prosperous and peaceful empire where people enjoyed actual rights, what a great man! So what if the great man killed a million Gauls and sold another million into slavery, he brought Roman civilization to the remaining million! According to Fears, the rest had to die in order for history to progress, much like beautiful flowers need to be crushed for great developments. Fears also argued that Caesar's actions are validated by the pride the modern French take in their Roman heritage. (I could transcribe these parts for you if you'd like a more accurate quote.)

At this point I was giving Fears and his Caesar crush some serious side-eye, but then again I'm not French and it's not for me to say how they should feel about their history. I'm interested in hearing what you think of Fears' argument, if you want to discuss it.

[dhampyresa]

It is an interesting show with multilayered characters, that's for sure. It's also gorgeous! (Are you kidding me? Mean Girls is always appropriate.)

I have to ask, since I can't read Koran, did they keep the puns in?

HAHAHA Thanks, I really needed that laugh. I would love it if you could transcribe it actually, that sounds like a laugh a minute.

As for French feeling on the Romans, I think it's not something we take a lot of pride in, imho, although it's a bit different in the South, where there are Roman ruins, but even then it's not pride in the ruins being Roman, but more in the ruins being well-preserved. (One of my favourite anecdotes is that in Narbonne there's a bit where you can actually walk on the actual Via Domitia and pretty much every time I've been there, the only people on there where kids playing football). I mean, there's a reason the stereotypical bit of dialogue to indicate 'history class' is "nos ancêtres les Gaulois..." avaient des capotes en bois / Maintenant, c'est plus pratique / Les capotes sont en plastique /is twelve.

Also, I think it's hard to realise for anyone who isn't French, but Astérix is a HUGE part of French culture. The latest album had a 2 million copies print-run. It ran out within a week, iirc.

[ljwrites]

Ask, and ye shall recieve! (Punctuation and paragraphs are of my own devising, since the original is in audio.)

And you know from Famous Romans [an earlier lecture series] how much I admire Julius Caesar. In my mind, he is the greatest statesman ever to live: A man of enormous vision and courage, a man of genius who amidst a busy life composed works of history--his commentaries to describe the victories in Gaul--that are the finest examples of Latin prose ever written. A military genius who didn't begin to command until he was thirty-nine years of age, and then never lost a battle; conquering the whole of Gaul. And a statesman, who envisioned Rome not as a narrow republic, ruling an empire for its own gratification, but as a world state--ruling from Britain all the way out to Iraq, and from the sands of the Sahara to the North Sea, in which every inhabitant of that empire enjoyed personal liberty, the freedom to live as they chose, the freedom to follow their own occupation, to make money and to be prosperous, all equal under the magisterial rule of great Caesar.

And Caesar is a world historical force. And like a world historical force, we cannot judge him by the values of ordinary life. Many a beautiful little flower must be trampled underfoot before a great figure like Caesar. War? Why, the conquest of Gaul! Plutarch tells us that Caesar killed a million Gauls, sold a million into slavery, and left one million free to become good Roman citizens. You might ask, what had the Gauls done to be invaded? Well, they had to be invaded because the demands of empire justified it. And history would justify it. And the French today are deeply proud of Caesar and the great conquest that created the nation of France.

-From Lecture 18 (Shakespeare's Julius Caesar) of Books That Have Made History: Books That Can Change Your Life, by J. Rufus Fears

Yeah, typing all that out gave me even bigger creeps than when I was paraphrasing from memory. Gotta love the dehumanization of the Gauls Caesar killed and enslaved ("beautiful little flower" barf). not to mention the blithe justification for Caesar's atrocities. Besides, the statement that Caesar created a Rome where everyone had rights and everyone was equal is just contradicted on its face by what he did. I'm not unaware of the complexities of history, and I certainly recognize that great crimes can pave the way for greater prosperity and peace. I do, however, draw a line at dismissing the very real damage done in the name of getting hard-ons for the criminals.

did they keep the puns in?

Not so much in direct translation, but they were careful to add footnotes to explain the puns in the original. It was like the translators wanted to make really, really sure the readers know how funny the original is. I appreciated the effort even if there were more footnotes than I was used to reading in a comic book, and the comics were funny even without the puns. I did hear that Asterix is huge in France, and I certainly enjoyed the translated books I read.

there's a reason the stereotypical bit of dialogue to indicate 'history class' is "nos ancêtres les Gaulois..."

Wooden condoms? That sounds... painful, lol. So much for J. Rufus Fears' speaking for the French. I can imagine, say, Renaissance French intellectuals shoving their Roman past in everyone's faces because ancient Rome and Greece were da shit back then, but then came the Enlightenment and everyone moved on to nationalism AFAIK.

(Speaking of French nationalism, La Marseillaise has been playing nonstop in my head this past week or so. I'll be blogging about it one of these days.)

[dhampyresa]

WOW THAT IS WRONG ON SO MANY LEVEL HOLY SHIT

Let's just address "every inhabitant of that empire enjoyed personal liberty", shall we? Every inhabitant UNLESS THEY WERE A SLAVE or female or a freedman or even a plebeian, to some extent.

Okay, no, I can't stop there. "the French today are deeply proud of Caesar and the great conquest that created the nation of France." THE FUCK? I took an informal poll among my peers today and the reaction was pretty much "meh, Romans" and/or "well, I think our language owes just as much to Greek, really..." (my reaction to Romans is pretty well documented at this point, but here goes: I LIVE ON DEAD ROMANS HAHAHA) and jesus fuck but the Romans didn't create France you asshole YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH (I am so angry at this, holy shit. The creation of French identity is still a fraught topic even today, but sure, the fucking Romans did it). But, yeah, the French are totally proud of their Roman heritage. That's why the most popular comic series here is about a bunch of Gauls (breton Gauls even) making an utter mockery of Rome and the Romans.

Astérix is massive. MASSIVE. It's very hard to explain, because it's not something that comes up often, but it just is? Idk how to descibe it. Best I can do is that when the lastest album came out and it wasn't terrible you could practically feel the whole country breathing a great big sigh of relief.

I learned that sound as kid in summer camp. I went to summer camp for years and learned a new bawdy song every year lmao. That was one of them. As far as I know it has no basis on any actuality.

I'd be interested to hear what you have to say on La Marseillaise, but however did it end up in your head?

[ljwrites]

WOW THAT IS WRONG ON SO MANY LEVEL HOLY SHIT

I KNOW RIGHT. I know I get rage-y when someone presumes to know All About Koreans. To have an outsider blithely say they know what you feel and think about your identity better than you, so don't worry your little head about it, dear--so condescending. So erasing.

Every inhabitant UNLESS THEY WERE A SLAVE or female or a freedman or even a plebeian, to some extent.

I got a strong sense that Fears is drawing a parallel between ancient Rome and the U.S., and in both instances my answer is NOPE.

the Romans didn't create France you asshole YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH

AGREED. The assertion that the Romans created France doesn't work within the bounds of Fears' own argument, since he clearly says that Caesar invaded and annexed a formerly independent people--one that had a preexisting identity as Gauls.

I don't know, maybe the invasion created a greater sense of unity than there was before, since I imagine the different groups banded against a common threat, kind of like how Arab nationalism was a response to Western colonialism. But if so Fears didn't make that argument, whether in the passage I quoted or anywhere in that lecture.

That's why the most popular comic series here is about a bunch of Gauls (breton Gauls even) making an utter mockery of Rome and the Romans.

I remember thinking that of the Asterix books, too, like, hmm, the French must be pretty invested in their Gaul heritage! I think that's why the books resonated with a Korean audience, because we've had our history of colonial rule and threatened erasure of our identity, too. Plus, the books are funny as hell!

Is it significant that Asterix and co. are Bretons? But then Breton seems to be a term for the inhabitants of Britannia, at least in the book Asterix chez les Bretons? (I LOL'd at just the synopsis. British soldiers won't fight while they drink their hot water with a drop of milk! XD And the villager Anticlimax and the Druid Getafix... OMG, dying.) I also found this article about Asterix while looking for "Asterix" and "Breton." (Side note: I've seen Anthea Bell's work before--she also did Stefan Zweig's Beware of Pity. According to her Wikipedia page she translated numerous French, German, and Danish works into English.)

I'd be interested to hear what you have to say on La Marseillaise, but however did it end up in your head?

It seems to have been totally at random. Maybe memories of Casablanca surfaced in my subconscious, maybe it had to do with the Charlie Hebdo coverage? I just got the hankering to listen to it one evening, and I've memorized the two most famous verses in addition to the refrain and sing it every day now. (Help)

[dhampyresa]

I am so tired of USAmericans just barging in into everything and acting like they know best. Because it is almost always USAmericans who act like this.

You can make an argument that Caesar created a more unified Gaul, because they were uniting against him, but not a united Frence, WTF?

In the context of French national identity, it is in fact significant that Astérix and co are from Brittany. French identity has been constructed at least in part at the expanse of what are currently regional identities, such as the Breton identity (I may have gone on a slightly incoherent rant on that subject in this entry).

OKAY YES I WILL EXPLAIN THE BRETON THING!

In French, the words for "Brittany" and "Britain" are the same: "Bretagne". (In breton, "Breizh" (sort of), leading to the BZH abbreviation, idk if you've seen it.) Currently, Great Britain is la Grande-Bretagne and Brittany is simply la Bretagne. At the time Astérix is set in however, Great-Britain is simply la Bretagne and Brittany is l'Armorique (from the breton "armor", meaning "the coast"). You can also find those referred to as "la Bretagne insulaire" (insulary Britain) and "la Bretagne armoricaine" (the coastal Brittany; see for example the beginning of Manau's La Tribu de Dana). Inhabitants of Bretagne (whichever) are called Breton(ne)(s), except for inhabitants of Grande-Bretagne, who are Brittanique(s). Inhabitans of Armorique are Armoricain(e)(s).

Which means that in Astérix chez les Bretons you have a group of Armoricains visiting the Bretons due to the time period while they would be Bretons visiting Brittaniques today.

Confused yet? It gets worse, if I throw in la/les Cournouaille(s).

Your "OMG, dying" reaction is pretty much what Astérix is like ALL THE TIME while French-reading, lamo. I think I know where I can find a couple of Astérix albums in English, I should read them just to compare. Thanks for the link to the article! It's really great and surprisingly accurate. (And I agree that Uderzo-solo books are not very good, on the whole. they range from 'pretty okay actually' to 'what album 33? isn't weird that the series jumped from 32 to 34. how strange'.)

I'm sorry, I can't help. I actually like La Marseillaise for a variety of reasons and the French national motto "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" too, that include the fact if you look at when they've been used in French history as symbols of French identity, they weren't used when France was not France/a republic.

[ljwrites]

I am so tired of USAmericans just barging in into everything and acting like they know best. Because it is almost always USAmericans who act like this.

Because Amurrica's the greatest country in the world!!!!111eleventyone Speaking of American rhetoric, it's interesting that France is something of a football for the American left and right. To the right it's a symbol of decadence, while the left usually compares it favorably to America. A New Rules monologue by Bill Maher was emblematic of the left's stance toward France, though Maher's praise of French reticence about public figures' private lives is ironic given later events. Michael Moore's Sicko similarly presented the French healthcare system as a model.

Americans sometimes use Korea as a model, too, and I usually find that embarrassing because our education system which they praise is really a sick mess, if less so than the U.S. system. Our wi-fi access is cool, though, no doubt about that. I freaking get wi-fi on the bus I take to work! It's nowhere as important as a well-functioning system of public education, but I'll take what I can get.

In the context of French national identity, it is in fact significant that Astérix and co are from Brittany.

Ah, so that was the connection. Are you saying that it's significant that the main characters are Bretons because it places this historically marginalized group in the roles of heroes? OTOH couldn't it also be appropriative to present a group that suffered for the creation of a national identity as the symbols of that national identity? That's an honest question, since I'm not aware of the nuances of French identity or of Asterix, for that matter.

I actually like La Marseillaise for a variety of reasons

Yeah, it's uh... gobsmackingly bloody, now that I know the words. I find that exciting in comparison to our own staid and politically correct national anthem. The song does a great job of capturing both the urgency of the days when it was written and the universal response of violent rhetoric against outside threats. Plus it's so damned catchy!

Help from the earworm arrived, as often happens, in the form of another earworm: The Internationale. I think it had to do with reading a book review of Foucault's Il faut défendre la société, a book in which Foucault argues that nationalism erases and ignores class divisions to enforce bourgeois rule. My brain seems to have decided that La Marseillaise stands for bourgeois nationalism and L'internationale is the antidote, lol.

[sovay]

I got a strong sense that Fears is drawing a parallel between ancient Rome and the U.S., and in both instances my answer is NOPE.

It makes me wonder who he thought the American Caesar was. (Whoever it was, he was probably wrong.)

[sovay]

And Caesar is a world historical force. And like a world historical force, we cannot judge him by the values of ordinary life."

OURS, MY BOY, IS A HIGH AND LONELY DESTINY.

< / Andrew Ketterley >

Sorry, I came here for the review of Rome Season One and was scrolling down through the comments when I hit that block of apologia. Then I went to check Fears' dates to see if by any chance he was writing in the '20's or '30's or even the '50's, but no, he was born in 1945 and only died in 2012 and the internet tells me that lecture series was compiled in 2005. Unless he deconstructs that claim to justification of empire in his next paragraph, I don't care that he won teaching awards by the bushel at the University of Oklahoma (and I am very fond of OU, it being the school where my grandfather was a professor for decades), my classics degrees and I call NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Octavius is just wonderfully adorible in that show. (Lots of characters have that thing where they're fairly endearing but they are also horrible, callous people, actually - it's pretty great).

Hahaha never thought of the Alix thing (not that I ever read any of the BD so)

[dhampyresa.livejournal.com]

I don't know if adorible is a typo or a mash-up of adorable and terrible/horrible, but it works either way. (Yes! It's amazing how they're so sympathetic and yet such terrible people.)

He is such a perfect Alix, though! And it is exactly the time period for Alix, which made the connection even funnier.

It's been ages since I read an Alix book proper (I should remedy that and see if I still ship Alix and Enak), but I did read the first two Alix Senator books recently and thought they were pretty great, even without any previous Alix knowledge.